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	<title>Comments on: Nuclear Deterrence in the 21st Century: Getting It Wrong</title>
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	<description>News and opinion from the international medical movement to abolish nuclear weapons and to prevent war</description>
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		<title>By: Cindy</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-1333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cindy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-1333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I greatly fear that people have lost the perspective of what a thermo-nuclear device is and does.  Dimmed through images of atmospheric tests done in the 50&#039;s and 60&#039;s - the insanity and the horror diminished through time.  Although I have not watched the lobotomy box (television) in &gt;15 years - I understand that there is now a naive program on about a post event world - occurring after a &quot;limited&quot;  strike. This is foolish and dangerous in the extreme, as it provides a gullible public a very distorted view.  I know what I&#039;m talking about ladies and gentlemen, I was a wet behind the ears engineer, blinded by science, and filled with distortions about the &quot;big Red bear&quot;  .... I worked at the Nevada Test Site,  tested, and ensured the viability of the accursed devices.  Make no mistake the threat was real - but MAD was self inflicted - fear, mis-understanding, and distortions by both countries, brought us to the brink - within less than 24 hours, during the dark days of the Cuban missile crisis....  No tests have been done for many years, even the sub-surface one&#039;s that I took part in - let alone the atmospherics (thank God!!) and so our naive, intentionally dumbed-down  populace has no point of reference, they swallow the visual lies, as they don&#039;t know any better.  The closest to a point of reference depicting  the actual effects and after effects of a &quot;limited&quot; exchange are found not in the watered down absurdity of programs like &quot;Jericho&quot; but rather in the stark reality of a film that was done years ago in the UK, called &quot;Threads&quot; .   Google on it, find it and watch it.  I believe it was Einstein who said that if WW III were  fought with  nuclear weapons, WW IV would be fought with clubs and rocks, WW V, fought with bows and arrows...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I greatly fear that people have lost the perspective of what a thermo-nuclear device is and does.  Dimmed through images of atmospheric tests done in the 50&#8242;s and 60&#8242;s &#8211; the insanity and the horror diminished through time.  Although I have not watched the lobotomy box (television) in &gt;15 years &#8211; I understand that there is now a naive program on about a post event world &#8211; occurring after a &#8220;limited&#8221;  strike. This is foolish and dangerous in the extreme, as it provides a gullible public a very distorted view.  I know what I&#8217;m talking about ladies and gentlemen, I was a wet behind the ears engineer, blinded by science, and filled with distortions about the &#8220;big Red bear&#8221;  &#8230;. I worked at the Nevada Test Site,  tested, and ensured the viability of the accursed devices.  Make no mistake the threat was real &#8211; but MAD was self inflicted &#8211; fear, mis-understanding, and distortions by both countries, brought us to the brink &#8211; within less than 24 hours, during the dark days of the Cuban missile crisis&#8230;.  No tests have been done for many years, even the sub-surface one&#8217;s that I took part in &#8211; let alone the atmospherics (thank God!!) and so our naive, intentionally dumbed-down  populace has no point of reference, they swallow the visual lies, as they don&#8217;t know any better.  The closest to a point of reference depicting  the actual effects and after effects of a &#8220;limited&#8221; exchange are found not in the watered down absurdity of programs like &#8220;Jericho&#8221; but rather in the stark reality of a film that was done years ago in the UK, called &#8220;Threads&#8221; .   Google on it, find it and watch it.  I believe it was Einstein who said that if WW III were  fought with  nuclear weapons, WW IV would be fought with clubs and rocks, WW V, fought with bows and arrows&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Getting to 311 (on the way to zero) &#171; IPPNW peace and health blog</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Getting to 311 (on the way to zero) &#171; IPPNW peace and health blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-438</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I’ve written on this blog before [No room for deterrence in the logic of zero; Nuclear Deterrence in the 21st Century: Getting It Wrong], betting the world on the success of deterrence each and every time a nuclear threat appears, even [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I’ve written on this blog before [No room for deterrence in the logic of zero; Nuclear Deterrence in the 21st Century: Getting It Wrong], betting the world on the success of deterrence each and every time a nuclear threat appears, even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lyle Brecht</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lyle Brecht]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes. What if the assumption that nuclear weapons themselves provide good value for deterrence in the world of the 21st Century was wrong? 

What if this foundational assumption, taken for granted by those schooled in Cold War gamesmanship is flawed? 

What if nuclear weapons, irrespective of their numbers and all the detailed assessments that go into the Nuclear Posture Review provide little deterrence at a staggeringly high cost? 

If that is the case, would nuclear powers still wish to hold on to a supply nuclear weapons for old times sake? Or build or acquire new nukes? 

Would the carefully calculated numbers of nuclear weapons required for deterrence resemble Medieval theological discussions of the number of angels that can dance on the end of a pin at best, or at worst, how we might rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic just prior to the ship hitting the iceberg?

Updated discussion for Rethinking Nuclear Deterrence at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. What if the assumption that nuclear weapons themselves provide good value for deterrence in the world of the 21st Century was wrong? </p>
<p>What if this foundational assumption, taken for granted by those schooled in Cold War gamesmanship is flawed? </p>
<p>What if nuclear weapons, irrespective of their numbers and all the detailed assessments that go into the Nuclear Posture Review provide little deterrence at a staggeringly high cost? </p>
<p>If that is the case, would nuclear powers still wish to hold on to a supply nuclear weapons for old times sake? Or build or acquire new nukes? </p>
<p>Would the carefully calculated numbers of nuclear weapons required for deterrence resemble Medieval theological discussions of the number of angels that can dance on the end of a pin at best, or at worst, how we might rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic just prior to the ship hitting the iceberg?</p>
<p>Updated discussion for Rethinking Nuclear Deterrence at: <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/</a></p>
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		<title>By: kittyreporter</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kittyreporter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, nuclear deterrence is outdated, outmoded and wrong for this century or any century. It only encourages other countries like Iran and North Korea to try and join the nuclear club. Isn&#039;t it time for the U.S. to finally fully implement the NPT and work towards total abolition of nuclear weapons with other nuclear and non-nuclear countries? 

Yes, it is time to work for abolition of nuclear weapons. As Joseph Rotblat once said, it is the only sane alternative for all humanity to keep us safe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, nuclear deterrence is outdated, outmoded and wrong for this century or any century. It only encourages other countries like Iran and North Korea to try and join the nuclear club. Isn&#8217;t it time for the U.S. to finally fully implement the NPT and work towards total abolition of nuclear weapons with other nuclear and non-nuclear countries? </p>
<p>Yes, it is time to work for abolition of nuclear weapons. As Joseph Rotblat once said, it is the only sane alternative for all humanity to keep us safe.</p>
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		<title>By: Lyle Brecht</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lyle Brecht]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your suggestions regarding &#039;extended deterrence.&#039; There are a number of sub-games (strategies) that are presently being used to rationalize playing the deterrence game, and extended deterrence (the nuclear umbrella that protects my currently non-nuclear country) is one of them. However, if the game itself is rigged to fail (i.e. is unwinnable), does it matter if I am playing a sub-version of the game? My first assertion is that Deterrence Doctrine, at its foundation that depends on nuclear weapons to &#039;deter&#039; First Use, was predicated on achieving a Nash Equilibrium in a two-player game. These conditions no longer define the decision space. Humans invented this game to forestall First Use. The game is obsolete, although, for a number of reasons, no-one appears to notice. A situation of the Emperor has no clothes. Thus, my second assertion: if humans invented this game in the first place, and this game is obsolete and more dangerous (and expensive) than ever to play, let&#039;s allocate sufficient capital to invent a new, less dangerous game to play. I believe this is possible. I assert that it is needed if we aspire to economic recovery and sustainable economic growth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your suggestions regarding &#8216;extended deterrence.&#8217; There are a number of sub-games (strategies) that are presently being used to rationalize playing the deterrence game, and extended deterrence (the nuclear umbrella that protects my currently non-nuclear country) is one of them. However, if the game itself is rigged to fail (i.e. is unwinnable), does it matter if I am playing a sub-version of the game? My first assertion is that Deterrence Doctrine, at its foundation that depends on nuclear weapons to &#8216;deter&#8217; First Use, was predicated on achieving a Nash Equilibrium in a two-player game. These conditions no longer define the decision space. Humans invented this game to forestall First Use. The game is obsolete, although, for a number of reasons, no-one appears to notice. A situation of the Emperor has no clothes. Thus, my second assertion: if humans invented this game in the first place, and this game is obsolete and more dangerous (and expensive) than ever to play, let&#8217;s allocate sufficient capital to invent a new, less dangerous game to play. I believe this is possible. I assert that it is needed if we aspire to economic recovery and sustainable economic growth.</p>
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		<title>By: John Loretz</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Loretz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lyle,

Thanks for the comment and the link to your paper, which is an impressive piece of reasoning, to say the least. Anyone who cites Italo Calvino in a footnote already has my attention. :=) You&#039;ve touched on all the salient failures of deterrence doctrine except one: as I&#039;ve pointed out, the whole notion of extended deterrence -- the so-called nuclear umbrella that nuclear-weapon states offer to their non-nuclear friends and allies -- not only attracts supporters for the doctrine as a whole, but is obstructing efforts to rid the world of these weapons. Some Japanese leaders, for example, are worrying publicly that if the US and Russia agree to strategic reductions down to, say, hundreds rather than thousands of warheads, Japan might feel compelled to acquire its own nuclear arsenal. The neo-conservative fringe is taking this one step further and suggesting that serious disarmament measures -- such as very substantial START reductions -- could actually promote proliferation. It&#039;s twisted logic, but it has an audience. If the Obama administration&#039;s Nuclear Posture Review emphasizes the role of extended deterrence (and deterrence in general) in order to protect its right flank, the goal of abolition could be set back for a very long time. To the extent that your paper and others like it can counter the false claims on which deterrence doctrine is based, it will make a very important contribution to the debate. Many thanks.

John]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lyle,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment and the link to your paper, which is an impressive piece of reasoning, to say the least. Anyone who cites Italo Calvino in a footnote already has my attention. :=) You&#8217;ve touched on all the salient failures of deterrence doctrine except one: as I&#8217;ve pointed out, the whole notion of extended deterrence &#8212; the so-called nuclear umbrella that nuclear-weapon states offer to their non-nuclear friends and allies &#8212; not only attracts supporters for the doctrine as a whole, but is obstructing efforts to rid the world of these weapons. Some Japanese leaders, for example, are worrying publicly that if the US and Russia agree to strategic reductions down to, say, hundreds rather than thousands of warheads, Japan might feel compelled to acquire its own nuclear arsenal. The neo-conservative fringe is taking this one step further and suggesting that serious disarmament measures &#8212; such as very substantial START reductions &#8212; could actually promote proliferation. It&#8217;s twisted logic, but it has an audience. If the Obama administration&#8217;s Nuclear Posture Review emphasizes the role of extended deterrence (and deterrence in general) in order to protect its right flank, the goal of abolition could be set back for a very long time. To the extent that your paper and others like it can counter the false claims on which deterrence doctrine is based, it will make a very important contribution to the debate. Many thanks.</p>
<p>John</p>
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		<title>By: Lyle Brecht</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lyle Brecht]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The U.S. is at a crossroads. For more than fifty years it has engaged a Deterrence Doctrine based on the strategic game of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) developed in the early 1950’s. MAD, in both its strong and weak forms, relies on producing deterrence of the First Use of nuclear weapons through the promise of a devastating counterattack with nuclear weapons. However, after fifty years of collected data, it is apparent that this game strategy is unwinnable.  Only a failure of leadership and lack of vision propels us to continue playing this unwinnable game. Some of my thinking on this topic is at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/Nuclear-Posture-Review-Rethinking-Deterrence-Doctrine]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. is at a crossroads. For more than fifty years it has engaged a Deterrence Doctrine based on the strategic game of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) developed in the early 1950’s. MAD, in both its strong and weak forms, relies on producing deterrence of the First Use of nuclear weapons through the promise of a devastating counterattack with nuclear weapons. However, after fifty years of collected data, it is apparent that this game strategy is unwinnable.  Only a failure of leadership and lack of vision propels us to continue playing this unwinnable game. Some of my thinking on this topic is at: <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/Nuclear-Posture-Review-Rethinking-Deterrence-Doctrine" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/16490356/Nuclear-Posture-Review-Rethinking-Deterrence-Doctrine</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Loretz</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Loretz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-208</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear On the Fence,

Fair enough, and thanks for being civil about it. I write different pieces with different audiences in mind, and this time I was trying to give voice to the collective nausea abolitionists feel when these very dangerous and (from our perspective) disingenuous ideas start to surface again. I also tend to react with outrage and sarcasm when people who have convinced themselves that nuclear weapons provide security call those of us who want to get rid of them naive. In my view, the truly naive position is to assert that nuclear weapons can be used as strategic tools to achieve national goals, that such a policy can be maintained over the long term as long as the weapons are only in the hands of &quot;responsible&quot; owners, and that ownership by &quot;irresponsible&quot; people can be prevented, by force if necessary. Even putting aside the problems with the definition of &quot;responsible,&quot; a single mistake or miscalculation would result in the deaths of millions of people outright, and would likely escalate into the deaths of tens or even hundreds of millions before the situation could be brought back under control, if it could. To turn a phrase from an old Clint Eastwood movie (and to tread out onto thin ice with you again), I&#039;m not feeling that lucky.

I&#039;ll continue to voice my opinions on this blog, knowing that I won&#039;t always make the kind of connection that I want with everyone. Sorry I didn&#039;t connect with you. Like I indicated in the piece, I make an effort not to misrepresent opposing arguments even when I don&#039;t respect them (and when they are offered honestly and constructively I do respect them). But I don&#039;t want to offend anyone who is really trying to sort through these complex and difficult issues, either. So thanks for the feedback. I&#039;ll keep it in mind. And if it turns out that my writing just isn&#039;t your cup of tea, I hope you&#039;ll find other contributors to this blog who&#039;ll do a better job of helping you make up your own mind.

John]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear On the Fence,</p>
<p>Fair enough, and thanks for being civil about it. I write different pieces with different audiences in mind, and this time I was trying to give voice to the collective nausea abolitionists feel when these very dangerous and (from our perspective) disingenuous ideas start to surface again. I also tend to react with outrage and sarcasm when people who have convinced themselves that nuclear weapons provide security call those of us who want to get rid of them naive. In my view, the truly naive position is to assert that nuclear weapons can be used as strategic tools to achieve national goals, that such a policy can be maintained over the long term as long as the weapons are only in the hands of &#8220;responsible&#8221; owners, and that ownership by &#8220;irresponsible&#8221; people can be prevented, by force if necessary. Even putting aside the problems with the definition of &#8220;responsible,&#8221; a single mistake or miscalculation would result in the deaths of millions of people outright, and would likely escalate into the deaths of tens or even hundreds of millions before the situation could be brought back under control, if it could. To turn a phrase from an old Clint Eastwood movie (and to tread out onto thin ice with you again), I&#8217;m not feeling that lucky.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll continue to voice my opinions on this blog, knowing that I won&#8217;t always make the kind of connection that I want with everyone. Sorry I didn&#8217;t connect with you. Like I indicated in the piece, I make an effort not to misrepresent opposing arguments even when I don&#8217;t respect them (and when they are offered honestly and constructively I do respect them). But I don&#8217;t want to offend anyone who is really trying to sort through these complex and difficult issues, either. So thanks for the feedback. I&#8217;ll keep it in mind. And if it turns out that my writing just isn&#8217;t your cup of tea, I hope you&#8217;ll find other contributors to this blog who&#8217;ll do a better job of helping you make up your own mind.</p>
<p>John</p>
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		<title>By: On the Fence</title>
		<link>http://peaceandhealthblog.com/2009/07/16/nuclear-deterrence-in-the-21st-century-getting-it-wrong/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On the Fence]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ippnweupdate.wordpress.com/?p=433#comment-207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I wade through the writings of proponents and skeptics of nuclear disarmament, I must say that I find polemical pieces like this most unhelpul.  Whatever valid points they make get obscured by their distasteful tone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I wade through the writings of proponents and skeptics of nuclear disarmament, I must say that I find polemical pieces like this most unhelpul.  Whatever valid points they make get obscured by their distasteful tone.</p>
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